Is Interstellar Flight being seriously Considered as part of Orbiter?

[Hartmann]

i said chunks of 1 YL but could be only based in solar systems , for example select one from a list and load , then orbit could be the same than now but with another star and planets.

 

[Zachstar]

Orbiter is praised at doing one thing and one thing well. Realistic sublight spaceflight. If such a complex feature as true Interstellar were implemented. Who here could HONESTLY say they would make any serious use of it?

Also to be frank I don't want addon focus to switch to some uber super exotic speed craft that could easily fly in the Excalibur NanoFX engine when so many addon projects are fading as it is.

 

[Izack]

Orbiter is praised at doing one thing and one thing well. Realistic sublight spaceflight. If such a complex feature as true Interstellar were implemented. Who here could HONESTLY say they would make any serious use of it?

Aye. I've been dreaming of it for months. :shifty:
Of course you're right, though. I won't pretend to be optimistic about the flood of add-ons that would ensue.

 

[jedidia]

Orbiter can already cope with 3 local sources at a time?

Orbiter can handle as many sources at a time as you like. It's predicting a trajectory with more than two sources involved that is tough, not the simulation of it.

Of course you're right, though. I won't pretend to be optimistic about the flood of add-ons that would ensue.

Seeing that not a single custom system yet supports Orbiter Galaxy (not even the bare bones, which take about 15 minutes to implement, and it can be done by a non-coder, without any editing to orbiter config files themselfes, and can be done without problem by someone who didn't make the system. Just grab any system, write an ogs file for it with only mandatory parameters, voila.) I'd say that is a very realistic assesement.

The best an logical aproach to this is "cut" the space in square chunks of 1 light year for example and make possible to load and unload scenarios like extrasolar systems with planets.

This whay you can save a lot of time in interestelar travel, and orbiter works well in limited distances

In Orbiter Galaxy you can specify the distance where you wish the computer to take over and just extrapolate your trajectory to a time where you'll be about to have to start your injection burn. If anyone thinks interstellar flight aren't challenging as long as there's only a source and a target star involved, I dare them to pull off a flight from Sol to Alpha centaury and try to hit a specific planet on injection. We don't even have the neccessary nav-tools yet to handle the Delta-V involved (except for the Orbiter Navigator, which seems to be somewhat underused in the community), nor could I find some more or less realistic design of a ship that could do the journey without heavy modification. I hope I don't sound arrogant, but as long as there aren't any systems and ships supporting Orbiter Galaxy, the demand for interstellar flight can be deemed almost negligible. It's the closest thing we have currently, and yes, Interstellar flight is more simplistic because of no relativity and no other gravity sources, but just try it and see for yourself that it isn't as easy as it seems, at least with current tools.

i said chunks of 1 YL but could be only based in solar systems , for example select one from a list and load , then orbit could be the same than now but with another star and planets.

We're not talking about interstellar flights anymore then, do we? But anyways, Orbiter Galaxy offers this possibility too. I guess the major problem that it's not used is because yes, the textures take a long time to export, and the GPU accelerated textures have problems of their own. It is all the more wonderous why there are no custom systems supporting it, though, since those can be loaded just as fast as they can be loaded normally. Everything points to the fact that people get watery mouths when they hear interstellar flight, and leave it be after toying with it for a few days.

Also to be frank I don't want addon focus to switch to some uber super exotic speed craft that could easily fly in the Excalibur NanoFX engine when so many addon projects are fading as it is.

It's not that bad. The community has had some almost frantic developement over the last two years. It is only normal that the activity rises and settles periodically.

This should be dealt with as a separate project, but i think 'C' as a speed limit should be put in place, & where the amount of energy required to get closer to C is modelled.

This could be done easily and universally by a third party add-on. Should be pretty simple, indeed, by keeping track of vessels and modifying their mass according to velocity. First problem that crops up is physical: velocity relative to what? If you have a galaxy at rest, as what I did, that is simple enough, but if you have stars moving, as you suggest, you can already scrap the idea with doing this independant from a full-blown relativity implementation. The second problem is of a more practical nature: scrap TransX, scrap IMFD, scrap even the Orbiter Navigator, scrap every single Nav-tool we have. You can't use them at relativistic speeds. You'll have to write a new nav-tool, and that's where the "Duh!" kicks in. Because, let's face it, this is university level stuff. We don't have a lot of people able to pull it off.

 

[T.Neo]

Now, I have a question... if I am making a relativistic interstellar vehicle, do I model the physics- for example- mass ratios, etc, on Orbiter's purely newtonian physics, or on the proper relativistic physics?

Moreover, is there a way to calculate a relativistic mass ratio, without a supercomputer or a PhD diploma?

 

[jedidia]

if I am making a relativistic interstellar vehicle, do I model the physics- for example- mass ratios, etc, on Orbiter's purely newtonian physics, or on the proper relativistic physics?

The second would of course be more realistic, but there's the above mentioned problem of inadequate nav-tools. It would be difficult to plan a flight.

Moreover, is there a way to calculate a relativistic mass ratio, without a supercomputer or a PhD diploma?

computational power needed for the task is negligible, and since you're still comfortably within the limitations of special relativity, the math isn't too tough. No calculus needed, just a good understanding of mechanics in general.

 

[Ghostrider]

Sure, why not? Already I am sure that there have been unintentional (I hope) toaster fatalities...

There have been many intentional fatalities as well... By your command.

 

[T.Neo]

The second would of course be more realistic, but there's the above mentioned problem of inadequate nav-tools. It would be difficult to plan a flight.

The problem with that is I can simulate all the physics stuff visually, but the actual values are the problem... for example, I can change the amount of propellant, the ISP... the thrust...

But that also changes things... and can change other things... and is also cheating...

But maybe it is the best option, of course...

 

[jedidia]

for example, I can change the amount of propellant, the ISP... the thrust...

All you'd have toadjust is mass, at least for a realistic lightspeed barrier. As soon as you want to implement other relativistic effects like time delation and Lorentz contraction, you'll hit the wall of the current orbiter framework. There's no way around that currently, I'm afraid (sure, you could scale up your mesh... but that's just where the trouble kicks in with relativity. Scaling your mesh up or scaling the whole system down do not turn out to be the same thing. To realistically simulate time dilation, we'd have to have the ability to dynamically scale the solar system down in the direction of flight. Even if dynamic positioning of celbodies would be supported, you still got the problem that your gravity's going to be messed up. The trouble is that Lorentz contraction has to be aplied AFTER calculating the actual position of a celbody. The core would have to calculate a system normally, and then recalculate it to set into the ships frame, so everything goes smoothly. It *might* be possible to do for a graphics client, but you still have the problem that the calculations for your vessel and for the system are done in the same frame. For real relativity, you have to calculate each frame independantly (while still cross-referencing them, as the frames still influence each other by gravity). I'd say it's not possible without a complete core overhaul, not to say re-write.


So, in the current framework: Mass-increase for fuel consumption and lightspead barrier: ok. Time dilation and Lorentz contraction: forgett it.

 

[HAL9001]

what about the R-Warp-MFD? use it's code!

 

[T.Neo]

Also to be frank I don't want addon focus to switch to some uber super exotic speed craft that could easily fly in the Excalibur NanoFX engine when so many addon projects are fading as it is.

Exaclibur NanoFX? What is that? Some kind of space shooter?

I know many uber super exotic speed craft that are far better suited to Orbiter than to... space shooters. :uhh:

 

[jedidia]

what about the R-Warp-MFD? use it's code!

I never used it, but I thought it only adjusts the field of view to produce some visual effects (and the wrong way round at that: planets would look sqashed, not pulled out).

 

[Izack]

Exaclibur NanoFX? What is that? Some kind of space shooter?

Yes, it's a game engine tailored for a Star Trek game.

 

[T.Neo]

I get really, really annoyed when people immediately equate interstellar spaceflight with Star Trek.

Interstellar spaceflight physics is just as much like Star Trek physics as interplanetary spaceceflight physics is like Star Trek physics. :dry:

 

[Zachstar]

It doesn't matter if you get annoyed.

Because that is what virtually every addon for a Interstellar mode will do. Star Trek, Star Wars, and everything in between. Utterly pointless as the whole idea of such flight in Orbiter anyway.

 

[deltawing777]

Just my 2 cents worth. Im MY opinion before we even start thinking about galaxies and beyond our solar system. Lets get orbiter to a state where its believable such as actual water/liquid where there is supposed to be liquid. A collision detection/damage/fire/explosion system. A good visual client such as what Jarmonik is working on or Artlavs. Lets get some kind a weather system going. I guess What I am meaning here is the full imersion factor. You goto any planet that has a atmosphere. You want to experience the weather patterns,the scenery,gravity. The "what if" factor. What happens if I try to land here? Or crash here. What if the atmosphere is made of methane and I fire my engines? Will I blow up? Those kinds of things. Just a little eyecandy for all my hard work to see once I actually get there

 

[Wishbone]

If the atmosphere is made of methane and there is no oxygen, why would you blow up? Would support you on the issues raised, with 3-D being the most pressing one, at least for simulating missions to Mars.

 

[T.Neo]

It doesn't matter if you get annoyed.

Because that is what virtually every addon for a Interstellar mode will do. Star Trek, Star Wars, and everything in between. Utterly pointless as the whole idea of such flight in Orbiter anyway.

Yes, yes it does matter if I get annoyed.

Please read up about actual interstellar spacecraft and some of the very interesting ideas put forth by distinguished scientists.

It isn't Star Trek. Claiming that it is, is sad ignorance.

Already interstellar space is just as goverened by newtonian physics, as interplanetary space is. Except when you are traveling at relativistic velocities (also not Star Trek: We have accelerated particles to relativistic velocities, and our most accurate orbit predictions incorperate relativity), but then, it is as goverened by relativistic physics as interplanetary space is.

 

[Jarvitä]

Agreed there. If you just want a Star Trek experience, you don't need to develop relativistic simulation and a multi-star model, you just need to run the "star field" screensaver while the next system is loaded by Orbiter. I would love orbiter to one day simulate relativistic physics so we can have plausible interstellar spacecraft.

 

[deltawing777]

If the atmosphere is made of methane and there is no oxygen, why would you blow up?

Thats my point exactly. Would I blow up? My whole point is about discovering and exploring. Testing new ideas. The "What If" factor. But in a somewhat realistic way