NASA Moonwalker claims alien cover-up

I understand both sides (being involved with and loving both) and as such am always trying to get the one to understand the other.

I have absolutely no problem with belief. I'm myself very sensitive to the religious feeling even I don't believe in god myself. We often visit church during hollidays and I can be very impressed by film story or religious music. But when it stop I still don't believe. I wasn't "educated" for that and the historical and sociological reasons why humain believe is too evident for me.

What cause me problem is when believer try to mix their belief with science, want to decide what scientific things is valid or not or compare science with belief saying they are on the same level. Belief is a question of intimate conviction wich have absolutely nothing to do with science because it is exactly the opposit of that.

There can be a great respect beetween the two but they simply can't mix or meet on the same level.

Cheers

Dan
 
And why should science prove Gods existence? There is no observation of God to start with. Can you experimentally prove God, like making him to appear when you want to?
There was a statistician in the early 20th century who claimed to be able to statistically prove God, but my lack of knowledge as to his name is an indicator of how his efforts hold up today... Still, worth noting.
 
Calling people lazy for not being scientists is not quite fair. And modern sciense involves such a huge load of knowledge, abilities and education that, in the end, a simple person (like myself) just has to take a word for it.

Which leads us to Clarke's laws again. :P

How long do you think, will it take until such a position leads to cargo cult science?

---------- Post added at 01:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 AM ----------

There was a statistician in the early 20th century who claimed to be able to statistically prove God, but my lack of knowledge as to his name is an indicator of how his efforts hold up today... Still, worth noting.

I had a nice statistical reading about the Quo'ran today...from the Islamic student group, which printed it on their flyers. I am not yet able to verify the claims, but they sound really magical. ;)

The word "day" is mentioned 365 times in it, there are 12 times "month", Angel and Devil appear in equal numbers, and the ratio between the word for "ocean" and the word for "land" is about 70%...

Who ever wrote this...he must have been obsessed or geek.
 
I had a nice statistical reading about the Quo'ran today...from the Islamic student group, which printed it on their flyers. I am not yet able to verify the claims, but they sound really magical. ;)

The word "day" is mentioned 365 times in it, there are 12 times "month", Angel and Devil appear in equal numbers, and the ratio between the word for "ocean" and the word for "land" is about 70%...

Who ever wrote this...he must have been obsessed or geek.
Even so, nothing is completely "provable" in statistics. I've taken a course and it was treated more as a science than a field of mathematics.
 
Even so, nothing is completely "provable" in statistics. I've taken a course and it was treated more as a science than a field of mathematics.

Here you learn it as mathematical subject, with all the ugliness of it.

Statistics can prove something - when you look at large numbers. The smaller the numbers, the more useless it is to apply statistics to them.
 
Well, my only claim in this debate, actually, is that I don't like when science is said to be in opposition to god or spirituality. I think that it's a very counter-productive argument that only creates more division between people.



Which is why, in science, one person's claims are never taken as truth until they have been independently verified by others.


Yes, but can you truly prove, to yourself, that all those independently verifications you get by other scientists are actually comming from real people and not just imaginary scientists that live inside your crazed mind having a very vivid dream?

In fact, how do you even know if your brain is in reality stored in a scientist's jar inside a strange frankenstein-lab heavily sedated with huge dozes of extreme medication kept functional by electricity?

:)

Ok, seriously, I'm obviously putting it on the edge here, but there is a line of philosophy that actually deals with this problem:

Solipsism.

In short it says something along these lines:

In the entire existance, I am only truly evidently aware of 1 thinking being; myself. I cannot prove that any other thinking being exist. Even though it may seem like all observable humans have the capacity of thought, there is always a greater-than-zero possibility that they, and even all else that I observe and perceive as reality, are just figments of my own imagination created by my own mind, which therefore leaves me with the ever-present possibility that MY mind is all that exists.

So to put that into the context of this debate; whether you observe god, or the atoms making up a human being, the observation is still YOURS only. Thus all, except the existance of your own thoughts, is something you either believe in or don't believe in.

You can't question the existance of your thoughts, if you have them, but you can always question their content.
 
Yes, but can you truly prove, to yourself, that all those independently verifications you get by other scientists are actually comming from real people and not just imaginary scientists that live inside your crazed mind having a very vivid dream?

In fact, how do you even know if your brain is in reality stored in a scientist's jar inside a strange frankenstein-lab heavily sedated with huge dozes of extreme medication kept functional by electricity?
If this is the case, then it doesn't matter what I think anyway, since my outlook is flawed from the start. In that situation, I could just as easily have pink unicorns prancing around, and that would be my "reality." Please, confine discussions to the real reality...

Moreover, the fact that you have to resort to such stretches of the imagination in order to construct a situation in which the scientific method is invalid, I think, proves a point...
 
The scientist can give someone all of the procedures to reproduce the situation exactly and observe the results for themselves.
which, as I said, is still not possible to most people, allthough they might have all the procedures, which is not very helpfull. Indeed, it reminds me of some experiences I had with some brothers and sisters in faith, that provided me with V-E-R-Y accurate procedures on what you'd have to do to get certain things from God. If it didn't work, well, one item on the list wasn't executed correctly. Like e.g. you have hidden sin in your life or didn't repent in all sincerety or blablabla. Needless to say I'm fed up with that kind of s***, but for someone that has a general distrust in scientists, their arguing might sound very similiar.

What cause me problem is when believer try to mix their belief with science, want to decide what scientific things is valid or not or compare science with belief saying they are on the same level.
This indeed causes me quite a headache too. It's very annoying, to say the least. On the other hand, every time science is used as a backing of the statement "there is no God", science messes with religious afairs in the same way. Also every time a scientists denies a miracle because it's scientifically impossible (as I said, to me it would only be half a miracle if it would be scientificaly possible anyways).

How long do you think, will it take until such a position leads to cargo cult science?



I'm not sure what you mean with cargo cult science. If by that you mean that in the general public scientific theories start to show similarities to religious dogmas, that has already started.

Who ever wrote this...he must have been obsessed or geek.
aren't the two pretty much the same? :P

Because of that qur'an statistic, sounds interesting... the problem seems to me that the islamic year doesn't have 365 days...
 
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I'm not sure what you mean with cargo cult science. If by that you mean that in the general public scientific theories start to show similarities to religious dogmas, that has already started.

Cargo cult is more attempting to recreate science and technology by filling gaps with religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult


It is not about turning scientific theories into religious dogma (But the scientific method shows many similarities to a religion, since you need to follow its rituals...luckily a good one).
 
Cargo cult is more attempting to recreate science and technology by filling gaps with religion.
You mean, like scientology? :lol:

Anyways, I cannot realy imagine any cargo cults in the west. Of course, in underdeveloped regions, it might arise. But even in the west, the broad public has to go with good ol' Pratchet: "But what keeps the plane in the air?" -"Science!"
 
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You mean, like scientology? :lol:

Don't get me started on them, I might call for a Jihad otherwise. :lol:

Anyways, I cannot realy imagine any cargo cults in the west. Of course, in underdeveloped regions, it might arise. But even in the west, the broad public has to go with good ol' Pratchet: "But what keeps the plane in the air?" -"Science!"

This is in fact, some sort of cargo cult already. ;)

How many people are not knowing the difference between radio waves and sound? Or how many people just say that we experience a climate change "because scientists say so"?

Don't trust scientists! Please!
 
Don't trust scientists! Please!

Well, I usually try to verify things as far as my education allows. But, as I said, from a certain level on upwards, that's simply not possible anymore (e.g. my math was sufficient to go through special relativity, but general? screw that!). So, for certain things I just have to trust the scientific community that they're not talking bullocks. If I wouldn't have that trust, I guess I'd be a creationist.
 
Yes and no. The believer could tell the scientist to try a few sincere prayers to God to show himself, and see if anything happens. Would the scientist do that?

Already done, it doesn't work: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4681771.stm

Calling people lazy for not being scientists is not quite fair. And modern sciense involves such a huge load of knowledge, abilities and education that, in the end, a simple person (like myself) just has to take a word for it.

Of course you're right in a pragmatic sense, i.e. nobody can check everything in a lifetime, but you certainly can check single claims and theories. Of course you need to make an effort (learning math etc.), gaining knowledge isn't free or easy. The point is that all empirical/scientific claims/theories are based on observations of nature, not on the ideas/believe of people.
 
This, on the other hand, is one of the few convincing arguments. Science proofs itself in practical application. Most of it, anyways. It shouldn't be surprising that the most animosity arises about theories that a) touch a sensitive subject and b) don't have any practical use. Of which evolution is a prime example

Evolution perhaps touches a sensitive subject (although it really shouldn't be all that sensitive!). But I hope you're not implying in this sentence that "evolution doesn't have any practical use"! :blink:
 
Evolution perhaps touches a sensitive subject (although it really shouldn't be all that sensitive!). But I hope you're not implying in this sentence that "evolution doesn't have any practical use"! :blink:

I am pretty happy that evolution works...being one of the growing number of humans who can digest milk...
 
But I hope you're not implying in this sentence that "evolution doesn't have any practical use"!
Sorry, what I meant is that you can't use evolution theory to construct any usefull apliances based on it.

Already done, it doesn't work
There's always the small detail that you can't put God in the lab. As I said, I don't like the thought of god working after a certain formula. He is sovereign. I myself have friends that looked for God very sincerely, but he didn't show himself. I sought very sincerely too, and he showed up. I know of other people that didn't search at all and God just stood in their way and didn't let them pass around him. I don't claim that I really understand his way of action, nor do I allways agree with them. As I said, every proof of God is subjective on the highest level.

Of course you need to make an effort (learning math etc.), gaining knowledge isn't free or easy.

It's not only about putting an effort into it. You also need to have the pre-requirements, like e.g. an I.Q. above average. And the term average is exactly the point here. To understand the details of many scientific theories, you simply have to be smarter than bobby everyman. Which means that Bobby everyman won't ever get it. Which leaves him with the choice to either take trust the word of the smarter half of the population pretty much blindly, or to make things up on his own.
Not to forget the educational standard, which in most countries is still depending on your wealth. So, to mess with the big boys, you need a) the brains and b) the money, and if you don't have them, you cannot use most of the proof that is provided by science, and it's down to word of mouth again.
 
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Sorry, what I meant is that you can't use evolution theory to construct any usefull apliances based on it.

Really? How about genetic algorithms for performance optimisation? Quite a few launch vehicles use those (in part) and they're based on evolutionary theory.
 
Sorry, what I meant is that you can't use evolution theory to construct any usefull apliances based on it.

I used the lowest level of evolution theory already pretty often for solving optimizations problems, like getting the optimal stage ratio for multistage rockets. A population of 200 genetic rockets and 1600 generations and you have a solution in about 5 minutes, that is only 750 gram heavier than the optimal solution calculated by a PDE solver - after spending 2 hours for turning all conditions into pure mathematical form and let the software crunch it.
 
Really? How about genetic algorithms for performance optimisation? Quite a few launch vehicles use those (in part) and they're based on evolutionary theory.

sorry again. I meant practical apliances for everyday use by everyday people. :P
 
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