News The Polanski dilemma

What should happen to Roman Polanski?

  • Let him go

    Votes: 5 10.9%
  • Send him to LA to pay for his crime(s)

    Votes: 24 52.2%
  • Statue of limiatations has expired so he should be free

    Votes: 12 26.1%
  • I don't care

    Votes: 5 10.9%

  • Total voters
    46
Gladiator fights has also been suffering of bad public opinion over approximately the last 1,500 years. I believe the western world should recognize that opinion is just a matter of taste and reinstate that brave tradition. Um, what? Do you say people get violated and murdered in process? But that's just someone's opinion!

Killing people for being gay or said to be gay is also brave modern tradition, don't you think? And when your daughter wants to marry a guy you didn't choose, you should have the right to kill your daughter before your personal honor is tainted?

All moral laws. You might think Gladiator fights are bad, but actually, they are just the mirror of the society they are done in, and had been perfectly good then. you will find only few writers at that age, who will complain about the immorality of gladiator fights. People complained more about the insanity of Nero, than about gladiator fights.

Even without the rape: A then 43 year old having sex with a then 13 year old, in all versions of the story intoxicated, is sure not normal or tolerable. If it was rape, it was worse, but even if the rape can't be proved, the remaining situation would not make Polanski look perfectly innocent, a victim of a slander campaign. We are still talking about a way of sexual violence. And this is why putting him in front of a judge is, like for all forms of violence, a better way to solve the matter than letting moral apostles and media decide. Such people are not forced to argue with reason, judges in a civilized country are.

Of course, having moral laws is a two sided sword. I won't argue against it. The same law which we claim is "protecting our children", is also able to be a law to introduce oppression, since morals have a pretty explosive property: They polarize all. Even a judge can't be neutral then. And you can't apply rational argumentations about morals. Morals only are.
 
Gladiator fights has also been suffering of bad public opinion over approximately the last 1,500 years. I believe the western world should recognize that opinion is just a matter of taste and reinstate that brave tradition. Um, what?

Let me repeat the same type of reasoning as in my previous post:
Gladiator fights should be banned. There are good reasons for banning gladiator fights: the right of all human beings to live is one of them. But it being disgusting is not a reason for banning it.

Do you say people get violated and murdered in process? But that's just someone's opinion!
No, that is not just someone's opinion.

Same reasoning, back to the original subject: it is not just someone's opinion that a child may not be able to decide with informed consent about sexual contact, especially when the other party is an adult with a certain amount of authority over the child.

But who knows this might be different in a certain specific case. The judge / jury / whatever should have the freedom and the skills to judge about questions like these.
 
I don't really care. I don't see her running through the talk show circuit crying about how 30 years later she's still scarred by having consensual (if drunken) sex with some creepy old guy. In fact, it's just the opposite, she's calling for the case to be dropped. I don't see the point in a witchhunt when the "victim" makes no claim of being victimized, that assertion is being made by people who are completely uninvolved.

Consensual? Are you nuts? For starters, 13 years old is under the age of CONSENT in every state in the union, so, even if she had GO 4 IT tatoo'd on her ass, she couldn't consent. Secondly, he got her drunk, and slipped her a Quaalude to boot, so even an adult might have trouble making proper decisions under those conditions. So how could you possibly say that she consented? Thirdly, he skipped town after being convicted of the crime, so regardless of how you feel about it, he was convicted and sentenced before he ran off. It sounds to me like you're buying the same liberal trash that the far left media is spewing. I am appalled that you're Ok with what he did, and think you might want to reconsider your position. Regardless of what the woman says today, he should be extridited to the US, thrown in jail, serve his sentence, and serve time for skipping out on his debt to society. I hope the people around you are smart enough to keep their underaged children away from you.
 
If some dude (no matter how famous), slipped my daughter a mickey and had his way with her, then admitted it, believe me, he would want to be in police custody.
My concern would be to get to him before my wife did, the things she would do to him are just cruel...
 
When it comes to the crime of having sex with children, I think public opinion is way too much based on opinion instead of rational arguments. It's often based on "it's disgusting, so it should be punished".

Oftentimes the "it's disgusting and should be punished" comes from firsthand experience or the firsthand experience of a friend or family member.

I think child sexual abuse rates in the US are somewhere around 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 for girls and 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 for boys.
 
I think child sexual abuse rates in the US are somewhere around 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 for girls and 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 for boys.

I wouldn't buy that statistic (Since I didn't fake it myself). Just remember your school class and then select every 5th girl... If you didn't have 2 girls in your class which did get abused as child, this means that there must be a class somewhere with extremely higher numbers...

It is a rare enough crime to be disgusted, and not happening so often that you can excuse yourself as child abuser, that many men/women do that.
 
As I already stated, it's not a legal dilemma at all but a diplomatic one. The law is pretty clear and nobody should be above the law (I say should because I know that unfortunately the law is not the same for everybody, alas). If instead of Roman Polanski we were talking about some unknown school janitor there would be no debate at all.
But it's not some unknown school janitor and people like Andreas Gross spout stuff like "you can't arrest someone of Polanski's stature like that". Yeah, because "stature" is what matters. We have Whoopi Goldberg arguing that what he did was not "rape-rape" but something else. Sorry, Whoopi, drugging a 13-old and sexually abusing her is called "rape" in the eyes of the law, and by US laws having sex with an underage person is considered "statutory rape" so there's no debate at all. As for Hollywood being "forgiving" with their own, it just happens that the media industry is no court of law.

So, it's all about international diplomacy now and I see that the French government has stepped down in its pro-Polanski stance. Can't really pass laws to "protect teh children" when you defend a sex offender, sorry.

Send the guy to California and have him beg The Governator for pardon, by Crom.
 
Why do I just have the image of Conan the Librarian in my head, with a book being late by a few days...

 
Precisely. The law must apply to everyone, or it means nothing.

Yes, it should. But unfortunately, that's not the way it is.

I spend too much time in court to have any idealized notions of justice anymore. The simple fact is that the truth only happens one way in time and space. To coin an over-used phrase, it is what it is.

In a courtroom, the only thing that matters is what you are able to make a judge/jury believe.

Less than 1/3 of the dregs of society I set out to prosecute ever see the inside of a jail cell.
 
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O.J. did finally get what he deserved in the end.
Karma's a ***** isn't it Juice?

Yeah, but in O.J. Simpson's case it must be said the evidence was badly treated, with crime scene contamination caused by bad management and breaks in the chain of custody which led to some hard evidence being tossed out. If nothing else, that taught us to follow proper procedure.

Or at least, it should have. Bad CS management and bad CoC are still around, but people try to pay more attention. Usually.
 
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/polanskib1.html

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0928091polanskiplea1.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wire/la-oe-samantha-geimer23-2003feb23,0,4716430.story

Opinions are very divided here in France ( it's in french ):

Diary of a lawyer
Some words-on-the-Polanski-case

http://www.maitre-eolas.fr/post/2009/09/29/Quelques-mots-sur-l-affaire-Polanski

I voted for "Statue of limitations has expired so he should be free", even if, in right, under the laws in the U.S, this is actually probably false.
 
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BTW, the pertinent terminology is statute of limitations.

The law doesn't really - and shouldn't really - care about the victim forgiving or not, and with good reason. In most nations, with penal proceedings once the machine is working it will not stop. Even if the victim decides not to pursue, the state will. There are very valid motives to do that, because the victim could otherwise be bullied, bought or threatened into withdrawing accusations which would mean justice would become even more of a joke than it is now.

That's a good reason, but it's not the principal reason. The principal reason is that the purpose of a government (including the criminal justice system, particularly) is to secure citizens, generally - not to serve the particular interests (such as a desire for revenge, or whatever) of a particular person who was the immediate victim of the crime.

A criminal act is regarded as an offense against the society, not simply an offense against a particular victim. This is because it demonstrates the existence of a threat to the whole society - to any citizen: the threat being a person who does not constrain himself from violence, and therefore must be forcibly constrained.

Using Polanski as an example, he raped a 13y/o girl, thereby demonstrating himself to be a threat to 13y/o girls (oversimplifying, of course). Having identified such a threat, the government acts to eliminate it - usually, by imprisoning the perpetrator. This is in no way the prerogative of the girl who was originally raped, since the government is not really intending to act on her behalf, but instead on the behalf of any and all 13y/o girls.

The general scheme is that the government secures citizens' safety. When a crime occurs, this represents a security flaw, which is identified and remedied (action is taken to prevent a recurrence).

I'm no expert on this stuff, but I think that this is the legalistic distinction between "crimes" and "torts"; the latter is an offense against a particular person, whereas the former is an offense against the society, generally, and so "the State" (or "the People" or "the government") is the plaintiff in the case.
 
The general scheme is that the government secures citizens' safety.

Depends on the doctrine of your legal system though. The USA have a protection doctrine in their law, in Germany they want to install a similar "nonsense" (my opinion on it), but currently the prime driving force behind laws here in our doctrine is managing the freedom of people. Raping a person is limiting this persons freedom and thus is illegal. Simple. You are not punished for protecting the country from you (we have special legal cases for protecting the society, getting used when absolutely no chance is seen that the legal punishment will change your behavior), you are punished because you exceeded your personal freedom at the expense of others.

He could even get reasonable punished out of many different reason in such a doctrine if he would have taken the girl hostage and forced her to watch his movies. (Limiting of freedom, removing a child out of the responsibility of the parents, special cruelty, possibly even the torture paragraphs would apply)

It is not about protecting the society - how could a judge protect the society from rapes that way, when a illegal and unpleasant thought police would be needed? And does raping a girl really remove the criminal from the society or does the criminal also have rights, which need to be protected?

If you rape a girl, you can get "only" a serious punishment here, because it is usually assumed (possibly correctly), that such behavior can be corrected by psychological treatment during and after your stay in prison. Only when even the most optimistic stockholm-syndromed psychologist waves off, you are considered a permanent threat for the society and requiring "special attention". This then means your freedom of movement will be permanently limited for the rest of your life(Called "Sicherungsverwahrung" - in English literally "protective storage"). You can still get free in some cases afterwards, but this then requires a lot of stockholm-syndromed psychologists to believe that you are no longer a threat for society. Has happened in the past, resulted in new crimes, made many people angry, and thus, the requirements for being no longer a threat had been raised. For preventing that psychologists in such cases become considered a threat for the society and might become directly liable for their decisions...
 
What is a bit supicious about the matter is that it took 30 years to fill out an international warrant for arrest. It looks like a severe case of "lawyer needs work".

That said, the legal side of the matter IS pretty clear. it still doesn't excuse the people that let it lay for so long. They should be sued too!

The Army, yes.

The airforce, hell no!! :lol:
 
As for Roman, I don't think it should be treated different than any other case. he gets his statute of limitations, if they apply.

More importantly - the girl doesn't want it to go through. What if its because she just wants to stay out of the news, keep this off the radar. What about her privacy. This prosecution could be more damaging to her than what happened as a 13 year old.

For whatever reason, she wants it all to go away and above all I respect that because its her wanting it.
 
Depends on the doctrine of your legal system though. The USA have a protection doctrine in their law, in Germany they want to install a similar "nonsense" (my opinion on it), but currently the prime driving force behind laws here in our doctrine is managing the freedom of people. Raping a person is limiting this persons freedom and thus is illegal. Simple. You are not punished for protecting the country from you (we have special legal cases for protecting the society, getting used when absolutely no chance is seen that the legal punishment will change your behavior), you are punished because you exceeded your personal freedom at the expense of others.

There's not really a difference that I recognize. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "managing" freedom, but securing citizens ("safety" is perhaps not a satisfactorily descriptive choice of words), includes securing their freedom - which means that people are free to do what they want, except to the extent that what they want, is to do harm to others (including abrogating the freedom of others; "kidnapping" is such a crime, and there are other, more specifically applied, ones).

The words that U.S. tradition would tend to use, are those of our Declaration of Independence: government's natural purpose is to "secure unalienable Rights." In practice, this means that government's purpose is to enable the persistence of a state of civilization, by maintaining/securing the necessary condition for civilization, which is that the participants don't violate each other (and neither does anyone else; e.g. - a foreign invader) - they don't, by force, impose their own will upon their neighbor (in recognition of, and deference to, their neighbor's human nature to act according to his own will); they don't do physical harm to their neighbor, and they don't constrain his freedom to pursue his happiness as he conceptualizes it. That is a necessary circumstance, in order for people to be willing to hang out with each other, to associate with one another, and for a persistent state of civilization to be possible. Human nature is respected, individual freedom is not constrained, to the extent that everybody is free - which means that they are not free to violate each other. Government secures this condition, by making sure that they don't violate each other - defeating, by superior force, force that is directed against an individual (as a practical matter, such intervention tends usually to be after-the-fact, intervening to prevent a recurrence of such misbehavior). Thus, government's natural purpose, and value - and the ethical justification for its being an agency of violence - is that it is citizens' common agent of their self-defense, thereby enabling a persistent state of civilization.

Government's function is to use force to compel behavior. Obviously, this is a constraint upon individual freedom. The principal, civil value and utility of such an agency, such power, is to compel behavior insofar as it is necessary to compel people not to harm one another, so that they are able to maintain the persistent association that characterizes a state of civilization. I suppose that one can describe that as "managing freedom," but that's an unpleasantly open-ended description; government's acts of constraining freedom, are desirably regarded as quite limited to what is necessary for common defense; otherwise, its violence is really no different from criminal violence, being simply the use of force to subjugate others to one's own will - ethically justifiable, insofar as one's will is that he not be violated, but otherwise merely arrogance (and likely to be incompatible with a persistent state of civilization).

It is not about protecting the society - how could a judge protect the society from rapes that way, when a illegal and unpleasant thought police would be needed? And does raping a girl really remove the criminal from the society or does the criminal also have rights, which need to be protected?

Well, that's a difficult, practical problem, of course. The general principle (in the USA) is that such a "threat to society" is identified by a specific, overt act - a person's act of having actually committed a crime, with that having been publicly proven beyond reason for doubt. And the alleged criminal has a Right to be regarded as not a threat to society - to be "presumed innocent" - unless his having committed a crime has, indeed, been so proven. And he has a Right, that the accusation that he committed a crime, is treated according to the procedural standards intended to ensure that a conviction (his being judged guilty of the crime) exemplifies a reliable supposition that it is factually true that he committed the crime. And he furthermore has a Right, that the consequences of a conviction do not include brutality or other treatment in excess of what is necessary to constrain him from doing further harm to others.

If you rape a girl, you can get "only" a serious punishment here, because it is usually assumed (possibly correctly), that such behavior can be corrected by psychological treatment during and after your stay in prison. Only when even the most optimistic stockholm-syndromed psychologist waves off, you are considered a permanent threat for the society and requiring "special attention". This then means your freedom of movement will be permanently limited for the rest of your life(Called "Sicherungsverwahrung" - in English literally "protective storage"). You can still get free in some cases afterwards, but this then requires a lot of stockholm-syndromed psychologists to believe that you are no longer a threat for society. Has happened in the past, resulted in new crimes, made many people angry, and thus, the requirements for being no longer a threat had been raised. For preventing that psychologists in such cases become considered a threat for the society and might become directly liable for their decisions...

This is probably the most difficult problem of criminal justice: what is an appropriate remedy, once the threat is identified; what "punishment," or other treatment, will secure the society against the threat, while also being no more than is necessary to that purpose (and even acknowledging the possibility that a criminal conviction may be erroneous).

I have described only the conceptual framework, as I understand it, and in the context of the issues being discussed; the details of how to accomplish the various conceptualized purposes, are a continuing practical difficulty, and they are always being considered and debated.
 
What is a bit supicious about the matter is that it took 30 years to fill out an international warrant for arrest.

That is incorrect. There has been an international arrest warrant out on Polanski for 30 years. You make it sound like the LA District Attorney just decided to file for the arrest warrant which isn't correct.

David said:
This is probably the most difficult problem of criminal justice: what is an appropriate remedy, once the threat is identified; what "punishment," or other treatment, will secure the society against the threat, while also being no more than is necessary to that purpose (and even acknowledging the possibility that a criminal conviction may be erroneous).

This is one of the biggest problems with the justice system in the United States. When someone, for example, gets a stronger sentence for "texting" while driving, than someone who drives while under the influence, something is wrong.

When sexual assault felons get a slap on the wrist, while someone kills a dog gets 15 years to life. We have things mixed up people.
 
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