Xbox Indie Port of Orbiter

[DarkFact]

I wanted to continue the accidental feedback of what about an Orbiter ported to Xbox 360 Arcade or Indie Games.

So I know there are those that feel PC is the only thing that can handle it, however if this were true then Forza Horizon and it's very complicated physics systems would not be possible. Yet it exists and is one of the most realistic simulations for cars I have ever played. While I understand astrophysics is vastly more complicated there shouldn't be any reason for the hardware to not run orbiter. It's a triple core 3 Ghz CPU for crying out loud LOL. My PC which is vastly under the total capabilities of an Xbox is running Orbiter at an acceptable frame rate with everything maxed out and yet it's possible for my hunk o' junk to run it and very well.

Tell me what you think about the Xbox Port Idea, Those for the idea and neigh Sayers alike.

 

[Hielor]

Just what I said in the other thread:

The more important question is, though...why? Certainly an xbox controller is not more beneficial for flying than a joystick, and even if it were you could already use it on the computer. Unlike that iPad space sim which was something that people could take with them on the go, anyone who's going to have a joystick available for the Xbox will have a computer that can run Orbiter just fine. It certainly won't make any money on the Xbox, as it won't appeal to the console gaming crowd unless you make it an action game instead of a simulator.

So...what's the point?

The issue isn't the Xbox hardware (although it is rather out-of-date by today's standards...but then again, so is the built-in Orbiter rendering engine ), it's the complete and total lack of an audience for space simulator like Orbiter.

Forza Horizon is a completely different genre than Orbiter. It gives players fast-paced action, cool cars, the ability to destroy random scenery, among other things.

Orbiter, on the other hand, doesn't have the fast-paced action that people are looking for in console games.

What are your goals in making this game? Is it for personal enrichment and learning? Then go for it, there's no harm in having fun. Are you wanting to actually monetize it? Then your project is doomed before you even start.

If you want to put a space simulator where there currently isn't one, I'd recommend looking at the Windows 8 Store, target it for devices like the Surface RT, and aim at making a very usable touch interface. I'd wager you'd have a lot more people interested in buying something like this for portable purposes than for couch purposes. The iPad already has several successful "hardcore" flight simulators; the Xbox, notsomuch.

Edit: Also, stop calling it a "port" of Orbiter. Anything you make will be a new simulator, not a port.

 

[Quick_Nick]

Do not call it a port of Orbiter.
XNA games are hugely limited compared to professional games.
It will be profitable, which is even better news if you don't want to profit.
Do it. No one's words can stop you from opening up an IDE and typing.
These are my opinions.

 

[DarkFact]

I have toyed doing it through the arcade as opposed to the indie games there are more options that route

 

[Quick_Nick]

I have toyed doing it through the arcade as opposed to the indie games there are more options that route

I'm 92% certain that the arcade is for established developers who have proven themselves enough to be given a deal with Microsoft. (i.e. make a number of great indie games or have a widely popular PC game)

 

[dbeachy1]

O-F Staff Note: thread closed temporarily pending move of OS Wars posts to the OS Wars mega thread.

EDIT:
Thread reopened and three OS Wars posts moved to the OS WARS MEGA THREAD. Feel free to continue the OS Wars discussion there, but let's please stay on-topic in this thread. Thanks.

 

[Zatnikitelman]

The following part of my post reposted from my moved post with staff permission.

While I don't see a problem if someone wants to develop a realistic space-physics simulator for the Xbox platform, it will be hard to get a lot of people on this forum excited about it. How would you handle mods? How would the "consumer" even develop mods? Would you even have mods? Until you can fairly comprehensively answer those questions, you probably won't pull a lot of us over to your side. I'd be happy to be surprised, but having observed this community for the past several years, it's hard not to get a good feeling for the expected reactions.

What isn't helping you garner much support either is your relative newness here. If this idea had come from a long-time member, then maybe it would gain some more traction, particularly if they provided more details to the framework (and didn't call it an Orbiter "port" either). I'm not saying being new is a bad thing, we've had some very good addons and ideas come from new people. But more often than not, we get someone who we don't know, with big lofty ideas that gets the community stirred up, then they just quietly fade into the background.

 

[Keatah]

For something to be called a port it would need to be derived from the original source code. Martin has not released the source code. And any attempt to remake it on the xbox would mean its a remake or rewrite. And even if such a thing was to happen, what about all the add-ons? These really make orbiter what it is. Could a remake have the necessary level of compatibility? I don't think so.

If you want Orbiter on a console, just go buy STB style of PC and plug it in. Now you've got your orbiter console. The hardware is just hardware, and more and more, today, it is getting abstracted out of the picture.

I am not excited about seeing Orbiter done on a console. It best belongs on the PC for many reasons.

 

[mojoey]

You have (off the top of my head) 19 buttons on the xbox controller, if you count the sticks, their push functions, and the xbox guide button. I don't really see how the developer could overcome a harsh restriction on controls. I like the idea, and would gladly play it, but the devil is in the details.

 

[statickid]

the main ...erh.. "thing" that i see here is that you'd like feedback about how people who use orbiter would feel about having an xbox version of orbiter. since most if not all of the people here ALREADY have orbiter, it's basically the wrong crowd. I feel like KSP would be better suited for xbox, since you build the ships and this cuts out the need for add-ons like orbiter has, and it's already commercial.

do i feel that people who have xbox's should have a space flight sim? sure! i think the more people excited about space flight the better. should it be orbiter? i doubt it.

I think it would be better if this question were taken to some xbox forum, and asked as the question, "would yall be interested in a space flight simulator?"

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

why not do something else, more specific, like an apollo program simulator. Then you could have achievements, long and short term goals, many different rockets, an established fanbase, arcade style challenges, like landing sequence time or accuracy trials, etc... you could even have a bonus or hidden lunar rover racing mini-game with floaty physics or stunts ala san francisco rush

 

[Quick_Nick]

why not do something else, more specific, like an apollo program simulator. Then you could have achievements, long and short term goals, many different rockets, an established fanbase, arcade style challenges, like landing sequence time or accuracy trials, etc... you could even have a bonus or hidden lunar rover racing mini-game with floaty physics or stunts ala san francisco rush

That's not a bad suggestion at all. This could be a starting point (or intermediate point) before making a larger program.

 

[Keatah]

I say show me Orbiter running on Xbox, with my favorite add-ons. If you can't do that, why not develop your own Space Simulator?

But, then, consider this - while getting a remake of Orbiter running on a console, you need to understand that people that get interested in this niche genre of Space Simulation, will already have a PC. Especially with PC's so cheap and prevalent today.

Go for it an show us what you can do! Why not build for tablets?

 

[Ghostrider]

IANAPGPAIWACOGFTUVALLTAAIPAL (I Am Not A Professional Game Programmer Although I Wrote A Couple Of Games For The Unexpanded VIC-20 A Long Long Time Ago And I Play A Lot) so take my advice with a mine of salt...

Doing a "port" of Orbiter on the XBox would mean having access to the source code and I'm not sure you can get that. Then unless you can put them as DC, you would have to forget the add-ons, which are a big part of the Orbiter experience. Then again, you have to work with the XBox controller which is not sim-friendly...

So my advice is to go with the limitations instead of against them. Old-school programmers on ancient consoles have done it with brilliant results. First of all, instead of trying to "port" Orbiter, find out what makes the "Orbiter experience" for you and most of us, and write the game around it. Orbiter lacks proper scoring, it has hitherto (hooray, I got to use "hitherto" again) no way to measure success or failure (unless you count spectacular disintegration) and no structured mission tree.

So, make a proper Newtonian simulator that is structured around measured goals which take the player from "where is the engine start button" to "the Eagle has landed": put a DG-IV, Shuttle-A and Dragonfly-like vessel in so that the player will learn about how to work the controls, how to reach orbit, how to RV and dock with an orbiting object, how to set up a Hohmann transfer orbit, course corrections, orbit insert and so on. Have few and simplified MFDs that can be called and switched with the touch of a button.

You don't need a vast array of controls, only the analog stick for direction, throttle control, RCS mode switch and little more. What you don't need for immediate action can be called up on an on-screen menu (open/close radiator or cargo bay, deploy satellite/antenna, whatever), just like wing commands on a combat flight sim. Anything that you don't need to react presto at the touch of a button goes into an on-screen menu.

Have measurable and scorable goals for each mission (Congratulations you won the game you're the Sky Marshal of the Universe now have a coffee sir). When all the primary goals are completed, the "sandbox" mode is activated and you can do what you like.

About the audience, don't worry much: if you write it they will come.

 

[DarkFact]

You have (off the top of my head) 19 buttons on the xbox controller, if you count the sticks, their push functions, and the xbox guide button. I don't really see how the developer could overcome a harsh restriction on controls. I like the idea, and would gladly play it, but the devil is in the details.

The 360 supports flight stick and usb keyboards so controls will be close to pc setup. Biggest difference would be the right stick behaving as the mouse look. Throttle, rudder etc would actually layout alnost the same.

---------- Post added at 07:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:49 AM ----------

I say show me Orbiter running on Xbox, with my favorite add-ons. If you can't do that, why not develop your own Space Simulator?

But, then, consider this - while getting a remake of Orbiter running on a console, you need to understand that people that get interested in this niche genre of Space Simulation, will already have a PC. Especially with PC's so cheap and prevalent today.

Go for it an show us what you can do! Why not build for tablets?

I agree with you the most if it will run with the most popular mods and mod expandability that would be the proof it could be done. As for tablets it would be very difficult to do controls well I suppose you could do it by touching the controls in 3d cockpit. I bet that would work.

---------- Post added at 07:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 AM ----------

I will post some control schemes and see which ones make the most sense.

 

[Urwumpe]

Touching controls alone isn't the solution - it works for buttons, but not always for switches. Especially not levers and rotary switches. It can be solved, but it requires thinking first.

Also, you can't run the better Orbiter mods on a XBox at all. You need to create versions of your own. And then better remember the licenses for the game material.

You can't even replicate the Orbiter SDK on an XBox 1:1, so that it will be at least source-code compatible.

I would recommend you to make your own spaceflight simulator - clean sheet. No heritage material from Orbiter. You can do much better if you can drop backwards compatibility.

No reason against using historical programs as game focus there: Why not for example make a specialized XBox 360 Apollo program simulator? Or Project Gemini (who does not love the Gusmobile?)

No need to especially care about Orbiter and add-ons, you can later grow. No need for Mars or the other planets to be done in great detail, and you could focus more on Earth and Moon.

... And why not make a Kinect EVA simulation? :rofl:

 

[DarkFact]

I have to admit apollo missions are a blast

---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

The kinect has been burning in my mind. Maybe kinect controller combo. My wife suggested I use the digital cam of the kinect system to place the players face on the character in game. I have some nice ideas as far as kinect but at the core I want the best possible realism. Something very much gripped for on consoles.

 

[Quick_Nick]

You can't use Kinect on XNA yet (if I've been keeping up to date).
And... what Kinect camera?

 

[statickid]

<snip>...No reason against using historical programs as game focus there: Why not for example make a specialized XBox 360 Apollo program simulator? ...</snip>

:goodposting:

But i said it first!! :headbang:

I definitely agree on the topic of "not worrying about add-ons" as a good reason NOT to port orbiter.

The reason is that some of the add-ons are so deeply associated with orbiter that they have become packaged with the base install, some of the others that are not in the base install are still usually downloaded a few seconds later, such as AMSO, NSSP, Altea Aerospace vehicles and UCGO, DGIV. These all have different authors and would all have to agree to the port and release their code.

Lacking any of these add-ons would be like a port of grand turismo without any BMW's Chevy's or Lambhorginis (brands chosen at random)

I think some of the big quality checks for ANY port are "how faithful is it" and "what does it offer to make up for omissions"

A game review site might review it and say something along the lines of:

"This is actually of a port of a free simulator available online. It lacks the many of the features and vessels of the original. If you're interested in this title go download it on your pc"

whereas if you start your own universe (which can be heavily based on orbiter, even a "ripoff" if you will) then you don't have to be worried about being faithful to the franchise (franchise?) or any of the other names associated with it

 

[DarkFact]

You can't use Kinect on XNA yet (if I've been keeping up to date).
And... what Kinect camera?

Kinect is equipped with 6 mics for voice commands and a web type camera as well as the sensor which is infra red that detects motion. Its how the video is captured with the kinect video chat.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 AM ----------

As far the indie game support for kinect you are correct but I'm leaning to the arcade which does indeed have it. However I have received the information on doing the arcade games and other than expense and proof of concept there isn't too much more hoops to jump thru. But it is considerably more expensive.

 

[Hielor]

The 360 supports flight stick and usb keyboards so controls will be close to pc setup. Biggest difference would be the right stick behaving as the mouse look. Throttle, rudder etc would actually layout alnost the same.

As I said earlier and you ignored:

...anyone who's going to have a joystick available for the Xbox will have a computer that can run Orbiter just fine...

You need to do something with your program that would make me want to play it on a couch instead of my computer desk, and you haven't proposed anything that even remotely comes close.