Orbiter Shuttle Sim

[landon2006]

Hey guys,
I posted this (or a simplified version of this) in the general forum, but it might get better responses from here.

Basically, I am the camp director for Space Academy, which is going to a be a week-long, day program for kids age 8 - 15 in the Bloomington, In area. For the most part, this will be like a Space Camp, only non-residential and cost a lot less money to attend.

We know the camp will feature a multi-axis trainer (which we have on order... $9,000!), a Newton chair type setup, which is being custom built (I think this is a called a centrifuge), an large pool (20' x 20') which will house the scuba underwater weightless sim, which will also feature an underwater satellite to repair durring training. rock wall as well as more activities. However, we would not be complete without a space shuttle sim.

I have used orbiter quite a bit, and feel that it would be perfect to use as the software source for the simulator. However, we do have some issues which we need to work out.

As fare as setup, let me explain what we are looking for:
1. Full shuttle flight-deck mock up

2. "Surround view windows" - basically 4 PC monitors hooked together to form a "Surround view" of space. We would pull this from the main view of orbiter.

3. 2 Joysticks for Roll, Pitch and Yaw, 2 Throttle levers (1 each for pilot and commander). Various buttons & switches that will interface with the software (aka: no keyboard our mouse will be used in the simulation) - all needed controls will be available by button, joystick or throttle.

4. 4 remote moniotrs inside the shuttle deck that will display the MFD's, and we want the HUD to either be on the external monitor or turned off. As for the 4 MFD monitors, basically there will be 2 for the pilot and 2 for the commander, both will show the same 2 MFD's. The last MFD will be centered in the middle.

5. Remote Mission control center with remote views of shuttle MFD's, as well as some buttons and switches to enage the shuttle manually (aka: Flight commander will have the option to turn on/off autopilot, etc.

6. Mission Control will also be able to instigate problems with the shuttle, such as power outages, malfunctions, etc.

The question I have is this.... Are these possible with Orbiter? My bug concern is the surround view of space using the 4 monitor setup. I know that it is possible to use that many monitors, but my concern is that using 4 monitors will be the total screen resolution to 5,120x800 pixels. Would orber be able to display across the entire resolution?

Perhaps there is someone here who would recomment hardware or software to setup the simulation as we need, or someone willing to help us in-depth to acheive this goal?

Also, a question I have that I have not been able to find an answer too: How long (in real time) will it take for the simulation to launch, dock with the ISS and return back to earth? We want to keep the longest extended duration mission to around 18 - 24 hours in total.

Thanks so much guys!
Landon

 

[unknown_orbiter]

You are talking about days not hours for round trips http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081201/ap_on_sc/space_shuttle. I suggest having younger ones do just trips to space or iss, older can be round trip, and senior kids (lol) can do extreme trips to/from moon and to planets. And to answer your Q about the remote HQ, you can find someone who could make this mod easily enough (I don't do much coding, sorry). Good luck with your camp man!

 

[Quick_Nick]

1. As you've probably seen, many people have made successful simpits.
2. People have had problems in the past getting large resolutions to work.
3. Use multiple joysticks with this mod.
4. People have made MFDs in their simpits before.
5. Basic remote mission control. (project homepage at top of page)
6. I don't know if Space Shuttle Ultra has malfunctions yet.

 

[movieman]

Yeah, assuming the multi-monitor issue can be resolved, I think you'd need to talk to the Space Shuttle Ultra folks about the mission control side; there's nothing terribly difficult about having other PCs connect to the Orbiter vessel over the network ('Project Apollo', for example, has a remote telemetry feature), but it would require some support in the vessel code.

 

[landon2006]

Thanks

does it really take that long for round trips in Orbiter? OMG... I figured there was some sort of internal clock that worked differently than real time. AKA: what would take 16 days in the real world would take 16 hours in the game.. etc.

Interesting news. I was hoping for a ISS resupply mission for the older campers (Advanced Astronaut Program 12-15). We certainly dont have 16 days... Be nice, but no.

Thanks for the other info as well. I found another simpit builder who built almost exactly what I'm talking about (http://www.toddwess.com/shuttle/), although its not quite as detailed as I had in mind. Pretty darn close though.

Anyway, thanks.
Landon

 

[movieman]

does it really take that long for round trips in Orbiter?

You can use time acceleration, or you could just dynamically move the shuttle to the correct location for the next stage of the mission. Again, you'd need some software support for moving it.

 

[tblaxland]

does it really take that long for round trips in Orbiter? OMG... I figured there was some sort of internal clock that worked differently than real time. AKA: what would take 16 days in the real world would take 16 hours in the game.. etc.

You have time acceleration which helps make the "cruising" phases of flight go much quicker (eg, times between launch and rendezvous burns, between undocking and deorbit burns). You would want to allow a few hours to fly to the ISS and back, minimum. The more accurate you want to make it, and the more time you allow for instruction, the longer it would take. 18 hours from launch to landing would be doable for sure (you'd even have time to let the little critters go and get something to eat. Perhaps even shake 'em around a bit so they get to experience Space Adaptation Syndrome )

 

[Quick_Nick]

Without much time, I'm interested in how quickly you can teach the students how to actually fly. Indeed time acceleration and/or Scenario Editor may be needed, but some people have made some REALLY fast rendezvous...es... before.

 

[BHawthorne]

Might look around the simpit sub-forum here. That sub-forum's focus is to use Orbiter and interface it as a full build-up simulator. The hobby builders call those simpit, short for simulator cockpit. There are a few people doing Shuttles. It's worth getting help there, as between the regulars that post there I'm sure you could have enough information to build a Shuttle simpit.

1. Full shuttle flight-deck mock up

Shouldn't be hard to get relatively accurate dimentions for the cockpit. There are many 3D models that can be scaled in CAD and there are a few Shuttle simpit builders around here.

2. "Surround view windows" - basically 4 PC monitors hooked together to form a "Surround view" of space. We would pull this from the main view of orbiter.

I would like to pose another option -- dual projector and horizontal-span mode in Windows XP. That should give you a very immersive view out the simpit windows.

3. 2 Joysticks for Roll, Pitch and Yaw, 2 Throttle levers (1 each for pilot and commander). Various buttons & switches that will interface with the software (aka: no keyboard our mouse will be used in the simulation) - all needed controls will be available by button, joystick or throttle.

Not sure on this one. I defer to others in the simpit sub-forum.

4. 4 remote moniotrs inside the shuttle deck that will display the MFD's, and we want the HUD to either be on the external monitor or turned off. As for the 4 MFD monitors, basically there will be 2 for the pilot and 2 for the commander, both will show the same 2 MFD's. The last MFD will be centered in the middle.

You can run as many displays as you have video cards in the computer. I currently run 4 8800GS video cards on my main machine allowing me to drive up to 8 monitors in 2D mode. I've ran MFDs in other windows just fine with Orbiter.

5. Remote Mission control center with remote views of shuttle MFD's, as well as some buttons and switches to enage the shuttle manually (aka: Flight commander will have the option to turn on/off autopilot, etc.

I believe a few people are working on Mission Control console interfaces. I read about it awhile back.

6. Mission Control will also be able to instigate problems with the shuttle, such as power outages, malfunctions, etc.

No idea on this one. I defer to other forum members.

 

[landon2006]

Quick_Nick, We have 2 different tracks in which to choose when you sign up. Mission Specialist's will focus on shuttle repair, satellite repair, shuttle systems operations, etc. Pilots will focus almost entirely on actual operation of a jet first to get the hang of landings and basic operations. Then they will spend several days straight learning shuttle control, while the Mission Specialists are off learning there side of the trade.

We have toyed with the idea of making the advanced program (ages 12-15) a 2 week program instead of 1 week, which would give more to learn the ropes. Since the junior program will not be as demanding, and there are no specific fields to choose from, we would most likely keep that at 1 week.

Whichever we do, I want the kids in the advance program to at least "Spend the night" in the simulator, to make it even more realistic. I have a good idea of what the final mission should be... Leave earth, dock with the ISS, do experiments and stuff on the ISS (Yes, we plan to build a small mock-up of the ISS as well, which will be connected to the shuttle sim), leave the ISS and return back to earth. All the while, mission control will through issues at them, such as power outages, engines dying, etc.

And then afterwords, we all go out for a beer (Nah, not really).

Thanks,
Landon

 

[BHawthorne]

Quick_Nick, We have 2 different tracks in which to choose when you sign up. Mission Specialist's will focus on shuttle repair, satellite repair, shuttle systems operations, etc. Pilots will focus almost entirely on actual operation of a jet first to get the hang of landings and basic operations. Then they will spend several days straight learning shuttle control, while the Mission Specialists are off learning there side of the trade.

We have toyed with the idea of making the advanced program (ages 12-15) a 2 week program instead of 1 week, which would give more to learn the ropes. Since the junior program will not be as demanding, and there are no specific fields to choose from, we would most likely keep that at 1 week.

Whichever we do, I want the kids in the advance program to at least "Spend the night" in the simulator, to make it even more realistic. I have a good idea of what the final mission should be... Leave earth, dock with the ISS, do experiments and stuff on the ISS (Yes, we plan to build a small mock-up of the ISS as well, which will be connected to the shuttle sim), leave the ISS and return back to earth. All the while, mission control will through issues at them, such as power outages, engines dying, etc.

And then afterwords, we all go out for a beer (Nah, not really).

Thanks,
Landon

Sounds pretty cool imho.

I'd be willing to help out on the CAD workup of the simpit. My only limitation would be that the CAD drawings I generate would be allowed to be public on this forum so any of the other users could also build a Shuttle simpit.

 

[landon2006]

BHawthorne: That would be a major help. I tried doing some mock-up's of the shuttle and space station in Lightwave, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm no modeler. I have no issues with releasing any drawings to the public. In fact, thats really good idea.

I look forward to discussing this with you more.

Thanks,
Landon.

 

[BHawthorne]

I've been pretty impressed with this build so far: http://www.toddwess.com/shuttle/

For me, it would be a fun personal challenge to CAD model up a 1:1 accurate assembly. Adding in challenges of using common off the shelf items and still make it look authentic and durable. I'm a manufacturing engineer, so this kind of thing is fun for me.

The initial questions I have on the CAD design:
1) Will this be a simpit that will be stationary build in a permanant building or mobile where it could be taken apart and moved as needed?

2) Is it important to have the outside of the simpit look like the shuttle or will it be ok just to make the interior of the simpit accurate without worrying about the outer shell?

3) The ISS docking...will they access some ISS module via a ladder in the airlock, or are you shooting for a design that would be more like a SpaceHab in the shuttle bay where they wouldn't have to climb a high ladder?

 

[unknown_orbiter]

With time-warp enabled I can do a round trip from KSC to the ISS back to KSC in less than 45 minutes. It is a bit sketchy bu you could do it in a few hours and it would be much better . Time-warp is the way to go and I suggest that it be controled from you instead of the students/campers...

 

[yagni01]

Here are the cad drawings for Todds Atlantis project
http://www.orbiterwiki.org/wiki/ToddWessConstructionDiagrams

You can use time accel, or restart a scenario at a different point while the campers are asleep or taking a break, etc.

Fly-by-wire can allow for dual joystick control

You mission control can share monitors (MEDS) with a video splitter. The cables can be shorter if you put the sim and mission control nose-to-nose.

You could run monitors at lower resolutions to reduce pixel count. Check in here, but I think someone has said max resolution is 2560x768. If you have the room, projectors would be more immersive.

HTH


-----Post Added-----

6. Mission Control will also be able to instigate problems with the shuttle, such as power outages, malfunctions, etc.

This is one area that you may have problems. Most vessels don't have a lot of 'systems' and those that do don't expose them to outside software. The only one I can think of that has a limited capability in this area is dbeachy's XR-series of vessels (they are not the Space Shuttle if you're restricted to that particular spaceship) With some external software I think you can force an engine out or a RCS thruster not to work, keep the APU from starting, things like that. You would have to model the spacecraft systems in the software that would interface your switches and indicators, and any mitigation steps would have to be 'simulated' there. For example, if you modeled the apu system switches after the shuttle, you would have to write software to check that all the switches were in the correct configuration before sending the 'start apu' command to the vessel.

Ask over in the Space Shuttle Ultra (SSU) development forum to see if there are any capabilities there you can use.

 

[landon2006]

yagni01: Most problems will be external of the software (aka: power outages, oxygen level plummeting, etc. It would be nice to do some things in the program, but most of the "problems" will occur in the hardware of the physical sim.

BHawthorne:

Will this be a simpit that will be stationary build in a permanant building or mobile where it could be taken apart and moved as needed?

It will be designed to be permanent, although the ability to take it apart will probably be needed at some point. This one I'll have to think a little on...

2) Is it important to have the outside of the simpit look like the shuttle or will it be ok just to make the interior of the simpit accurate without worrying about the outer shell?

No, the look of the outside is irrelevant. The shuttle sim and space station sim will be in an enclosed room that most students will never see.

3) The ISS docking...will they access some ISS module via a ladder in the airlock, or are you shooting for a design that would be more like a SpaceHab in the shuttle bay where they wouldn't have to climb a high ladder?

I'll have to think more about this... seeing as how there will be some "overnight" sims, the ability to build-in sleeping and living quarters will be necessary. The layout will probably be pretty close to a real shuttle. You enter through a space hatch on the side of shuttle, which will lead into the lower deck. On the lower deck, there will be bunk beds, seats for Mission Specialists and a restroom. A ladder will lead up to the flight deck, which will contain the pilot and commander seats and as well as several MS seats. The entire sim will be designed to sleep/house 8 students. There will be no payload or anything of that nature.

Access to the Space Station will be gained by another door on the side of the shuttle opposite of the entrance door. Space station will always been "docked" to the shuttle, but door will not open until docked the sim.

PS) I like the projector idea... It had never crossed my mind before.

Thanks,
Landon

 

[Hielor]

...problems will be external of the software (aka: power outages, oxygen level plummeting, etc...

Will that include a hissing noise and actual removal of oxygen from the compartment, along with little yellow masks dropping down from the overhead compartment? It'd be more realistic that way (well, without the masks...followed instead by the real loss of all crew members). Give them a good sense of urgency too, but I don't imagine you'd have too good of a reputation afterwards.

More seriously: Any systems not modeled in Orbiter can be failed as you see fit, it'll just be that whatever avionics and mission control software you write will need to support it.

No, the look of the outside is irrelevant. The shuttle sim and space station sim will be in an enclosed room that most students will never see.

Ohhh, that's advantageous. What would also be really cool is if you could have the non-forward windows (shuttle has two looking "up" and two looking "back", along with small windows in each of the hatches I believe) actually showing outside views, but Orbiter doesn't yet have the ability to show multiple angles. Creative use of CameraMFD may allow this though. This way you could have the station visible out the windows when you're docked, and not there when you're not.

Access to the Space Station will be gained by another door on the side of the shuttle opposite of the entrance door. Space station will always been "docked" to the shuttle, but door will not open until docked the sim.

Technically, the Shuttle docks with the Station via the airlock to the cargo bay, with the docking attachment sitting in the forward bit of the cargo bay and the station being "up" from the shuttle. A consideration, if you're going for full realism, but it would definitely be easier to have it be to the side.

 

[yagni01]

Will that include a hissing noise and actual removal of oxygen from the compartment, along with little yellow masks dropping down from the overhead compartment? It'd be more realistic that way (well, without the masks...followed instead by the real loss of all crew members). Give them a good sense of urgency too, but I don't imagine you'd have too good of a reputation afterwards.

You hear a very loud klaxon in the case of pressure loss. Be nice if SSU folks could provide a .wav file for it. I agree that having the systems controlled outside Orbiter makes things simpler.

 

[tblaxland]

What would also be really cool is if you could have the non-forward windows (shuttle has two looking "up" and two looking "back", along with small windows in each of the hatches I believe) actually showing outside views, but Orbiter doesn't yet have the ability to show multiple angles.

Here's a brain fart - could you do this:

Basically, its like what you do with MFDs on client machines but slaving a simulation session instead of the MFD. All sim sessions are started with the same scenario file to provide an initial rough sychronisation. You would need to write the module for the client machines to update the vessel position/attitude but that is not too hard, especially given that the focus vessel and POV always remain the same. Hardware cost may be an issue though, since your client machines need to be capable enough to run a full simulation session at reasonable frame rates. I know many simpit builders use down-spec machines for their MFD clients to keep costs down.

 

[Hielor]

Shhhh! No! take down your post! my secrets must not be given away! Kidding

Answer: Yes I think it would be possible, and I've been toying with that idea before. Especially since I was able to crank it up to a 20Hz data rate with the subscription method, you're probably close to being able to do what you describe.

I think the best bet would be to somehow support UDP broadcast in Orb:Connect, so you can have any number of clients on the same network with no additional network or server load. Given a good enough network (standard Ethernet should be fine) and host, you may even be able to broadcast the simulation state once a frame or every other frame, which would be plenty fast enough for an outside view.